Ep. 2 When Things Fall Apart | Beth Kuhn

Beth Kuhn had a dream of performing on Broadway, and when she had almost made it there, in her words, her voice “falling apart at the seams.” In this conversation, Beth generously shares her voice journey, from pursuing a career in musical theater to ending up living with her parents nursing her voice back to health to finally finding a freer, healthier and more authentic voice.

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Davin Youngs 0:01

What's up my friends? It is I, Davin Youngs the host of this podcast, and today I am super excited because I get to share with you a meaningful conversation I had with my friend and client, Beth Kuhn. amongst many other things, Beth is a singer and an actress and an improviser and a writer. She's wicked funny. She's a comedian. But what I really want you to know about Beth and what I think you'll glean from this interview is that Beth is a generous spirit. I wanted you to hear her story because I knew that she would have the courage to share it with vulnerability and grace, and boy did she. But I also wanted you to hear Beth's story because while it is a very particular story of someone who pursued a professional career in musical theater, the particular is always the universal and Beth's story touches on so many universal themes to which I know you will relate, like dreams and desires from our youth, or the joy and risk of pursuing creative endeavors, the experience of great loss, and ultimately a reckoning with identity and what it means to be human. So with that in mind, and without further ado, here is my conversation with Beth Kuhn.

I was wondering if we could start our conversation with you reflecting on your memory of the night that we met, and maybe just sharing a little bit about what was going on in your life, then?

Beth Kuhn 3:01

Sure. Well, mostly, I remember walking into the Music Building in Chicago where they have old timey elevators and a man who operates them. I was I was very shocked by that elevator man. But yeah, when I walked into your studio, I was somebody who really needed help, and had really, really pushed that away for a long time, and had thought that I could do it on my own, or was afraid to ask for help. But I had finally reached a breaking point where I knew that if I didn't start taking voice lessons, and really pay attention to my voice in a professional setting, I wasn't going to do it. You know, like you push, you push away things that are hard. And I think this was really hard for me to admit that I did not have control over my voice anymore. And I needed to ask someone for help.

Davin Youngs 4:02

I really appreciate you sharing that framework. You know, I think so often in our lives when we come up to these moments are these points where we can no longer resist it's when we find ourselves most ready to surrender to the possibility of change. But I wonder if you might just explain more when you say you didn't have control over your voice and you needed help. What exactly was going on?

Beth Kuhn 4:29

Yeah, I was doing a play in 2015. I was doing Boeing, Boeing if anyone knows that play and I was playing Gretchen the German stewardess. Her character is notoriously played by women with veryabrasive voices, and it's a lot of text and I was screaming. I was like screaming my way through this show. And I think honestly, I was probably pretty funny, but I don't know. I don't know if, you know, part of that wasn't because I was altering my voice to be pretty funny sounding. And definitely not in a healthy way. So during that tim I was experiencing a lack of range, when I would even just try and sing, but I was sort of, you know, I pushed it aside. I was like, as soon as the play is over, I'll be fine, I'll be able to go back to my normal singing. And it just turns out that when I got back to New York, I was trying to sing a song that I had sung, you know, maybe 4 million times for an audition, and it was like there were holes in my voice. I would go to hit a certain note that was maybe a money note of mine before, and it was... When I visualize it was like, those, those end of the world movies where the earth just cracks in two, and you see one person and then the love interest is on the other side of this, like canyon, that's like getting bigger and bigger. That's how I felt. Like my voice was falling apart at the seams.

I ended up doing some speech therapy. And, you know, I had doctors scope me and they were like, it's not really nodes. We don't really see nodes. But, you know, good luck.

Davin Youngs 6:38

That must have been confusing. But before you tell me any more, I just want to give a little bit of context to anyone who might be listening. Who doesn't know quite what you're talking about when you say speech therapy or nodes. Nodes essentially is a nickname for vocal nodules or a vocal nodule, which is really one of the most common problems or pathologies that one could have with their voice doesn't matter who you are professional speaker or singer, or just a mom. This is something that happens over a period of time. And usually it's the convergence of a number of factors that cause what can be thought of as a hardening of the surface of the tissue, the vocal cord, or the vocal fold is what scientists and doctors call it. Some people refer to it as like a callus that usually begins with some sort of swelling. And when it becomes hardened, it inhibits the quality of the sound, causing a rough voice. It also might mean for discomfort in making the sound because things get thrown off balance and extra muscles have to do extra work to make things work correctly, to get your voice to come out with any sort of clarity. And so one of the ways in which we deal with this, when it shows up in someone is through speech therapy. Someone called a speech pathologist works with the voice user on how it is that they're even making sound. So it's not specifically about speaking, although that's the thing we do most of on any given day. And the reason that we even know that someone would have a vocal nodule is through what you refer to as scoping, which is essentially using a camera to see what's going on. So I'm sure that after speech therapy and being scoped and being told that really there wasn't much wrong, that was probably maybe a bit of a relief and also kind of confusing. So what happened next?

Beth Kuhn 8:40

Yeah, so then I ended up moving back to New York. I was like, I'm better I'm got to see Hamilton in previews for $20. It was gonna be a great year, and I went to my very first audition and I couldn't sing. I just couldn't do it. I clamped up I felt like you know, when you get when you get nervous, or you have or you're very emotional and you feel your stomach just all the way up in your in your throat like, I couldn't access any sort of calm in my in my throat or in my neck. Or honestly, in my mind. And I knew that was a serious issue and I tried a couple more auditions and it was just truly embarrassing to say the least. And, you know, nobody's gonna remember my audition for the Marvelous Wonderettes at some, you know, Cape Cod Theatre on the sea or something but I do. So, I ended up moving back to Chicago and moved in with my parents.

I remember the day that I got home, it was like a blizzard and I was just sobbing and I was so depressed and upset because I could see my career in front of my eyes just like like the bubble of it just popping. It's interesting Davin because when I, when I knew I wanted to do musical theater, I had a fire within me that was so strong, and I knew nothing would ever blow it out. And then in this moment crying having to move home because I couldn't sing. I it was like I was a different person. It was a complete in in such a short amount of time that I had no faith that I would ever get it back. I was hopeless.

Davin Youngs 10:49

Yeah. And of course, that hopelessness was probably all encompassing, because it wasn't just about not feeling like you had your voice. But it was everything that the voice represented, I mean, really a piece of your identity that you had been working so hard to cultivate and career trajectory. I wonder, were you able to put that in any sort of perspective in your mind during that time? What the implications were?

Beth Kuhn 11:23

I think that I, at the end of the day, I think that I just felt such an overwhelming sadness. Because I couldn't really comprehend why it was happening. I don't consider myself an incredibly religious person, but I do believe in a higher power and a god and all of that. And I remember having moments at night with, you know, just lying there, and you're like, what, well, why is this happening to me? This is my, this is what I dream of, this is my passion. This is all I want with my whole life, and I can't even speak right now without pain. I mean, that's psychologically... I still get emotional about it, because communication is the number one reason anyone gets into the arts. And if you can't even speak to someone without having pain in your throat, I mean, it's, it's a constant reminder that you know, something is really wrong.

So, you know, I ended up seeing a really good doctor in Chicago. And he he also was sort of skeptical that I had vocal nodules, he sort of saw tiny bumps, and he suggested that I have surgery to remove whatever really was there. So I did the vocal surgery that everybody kind of dreads. But usually people kind of bounced right back from that, you know, after five or six weeks, sometimes they're even back on Broadway performing. And I didn't. I didn't bounce back. I remember being in the car, like, five weeks after surgery and listening to that Maroon five song. That sugar song and I couldn't sing it. And I was like, I mean, Adam Levine's voice is high, but he's also a guy. I was like, I should be able to sing this. That's such a vivid memory in my mind. I still like that song, though. So that's good. But, yeah, so that's when I sort of went down this kind of more in depth journey with speech therapy. I actually saw two different people. The second woman I saw was, you know, extremely helpful. And I really do believe in speech therapy. I think it helped me a lot and I no longer have pain when I speak.

Davin Youngs 14:42

And I also find myself pointing out to people like you who are going through speech therapy or working with a speech pathologist that as much as you might sing and as many habits as you might have around singing, the thing you're doing more of the thing you're doing the most of on any given day is speaking or talking But the tricky part of that is that it's the thing that we do most mindlessly most of the time, most of us aren't aware of what is even happening when we're making sound when we speak. And so stopping and thinking about it and learning about it can be quite overwhelming.

Beth Kuhn 15:18

It is absolutely overwhelming. I was given these worksheets, you know, to do with several sentences on them, like "Henry snuck by Jason with his cat" or whatever, you know, and I would sit there in my, in my parents house, 28 years old... I would sort of go to take a bath and turn on the vent fan in the in the bathroom to sort of find my own little mini place of, you know, solace, or whatever, to practice my, like, remedial sentences that I was asked to try and say. And, you know, it was kind of its own version of torture in a way. And I thought to myself, well, I did this to myself, you know, I did that play, and I didn't take care of myself, and this is my fault. And I didn't take care of myself enough in college. And I, you know, it didn't learn enough about my voice. And why did I ever think that I could be a professional if I didn't take this seriously? You know, yeah, I just went down some really dark paths.

Davin Youngs 16:28

Yeah, well, I really appreciate you sharing that because it is so often the case that when people find themselves in a position similar to yours, that they'll head down that spiral of shame and I often observe that people want to pinpoint the one event or the one occurrence that push them over the edge, the behavior that caused this, and it's never quite that simple. You know, one time I took my phone to get fixed at the Apple Store. I had dropped it and the screen cracked. And I explained to the guy that where I had dropped it and how it had landed and, and that that was the reason the phone cracked, and he told me that it is most often the case that it's never one drop that causes your phone screen to crack. There are a number of drops over a period of time that caused these tiny little micro fractures and over time, the glass just can't withstand another drop. I've often thought about that is an image for what happens to a lot of people with their voice.

Beth Kuhn 17:32

Yeah, and I mean, I can definitely think back several times in my career where I was, I was pushing to, you know, sing that Elphaba material or I was, I was trying to, you know, I remember being in callbacks for Sister Act and being asked to sing the ensemble, soprano line of music that's above the staff and being asked to belt it and things like that. Not that I was incapable of making those sounds. But I'm not sure that I ever really was doing it in the healthiest way. And I think that I always thought that voice lessons were too expensive in New York. But looking back, I mean, maybe, you know, maybe I needed to figure out a way that I could afford it. Because it's part of it's part of the upkeep. You know, if you want to be a professional in any boutique sort of profession that comes with honing your skills, and then practicing them all the time. And I wasn't practicing them. I was going for product all the time. Yeah, you know,

Davin Youngs 18:42

So let's talk about like how we ended up down the path of product. So I know you grew up in the Chicagoland area, and I'm going to assume that your childhood involves singing in some capacity. So tell me about origins of getting involved with musical theater and where that took you?

Beth Kuhn 18:59

Yeah, sure. So my very first experience with musical theater was auditioning for Gretel in the Sound of Music when I was five, and practicing in the kitchen, singing the Star Spangled Banner to my mother who constantly reminded me that I shouldn't take a breath in the middle of a word. Which I still, you know, sometimes have to do. But yeah, and I didn't get it. And I think that that sent me on this path of well... I'm gonna get it.

Davin Youngs 19:34

No, I relate. I relate to this. And I will say that not everyone has this experience, but I'm very much of that of that same mind. Keep going.

Beth Kuhn 19:43

As I as I got older, my mom started introducing me to movie musicals. And the first time I saw the movie Oklahoma, I was a changed person.

I think everybody has this moment where they can pinpoint you know, maybe not necessarily when they know what they want to do with their lives, but a moments that really changed them and and watching Oklahoma was like, I mean, I still get chills thinking about that first time I saw that movie, and just being so overwrought with emotion, and thinking, like, there's no way I could do anything about this, like, ever. And it's exciting, actually, it's still now you know, 20 years later, it still makes me excited thinking about that sort of that moment when I thought, this is it, this is this is my life.

So yeah, I really, you know, started doing it in school, and I loved it. And like, I was a good singer and I think like a when you're young, and you're in school, and you're not afraid, because I think it's very nerve wracking to sing in front of people... when you kind of are more excited by it, then scared, I think they put you in the lead or good parts in the musicals, and then you think you're hot stuff.

Davin Youngs 21:21

Yeah. But I think this is such a key moment in any childhood story, and in your case, you know, you had this thing that you were excited to do, and that you're willing to put yourself out there with, and you got praise and affirmation around it. So many people have the opposite experience where they're told that they should be quiet, or that they should sit down or that they don't sound good. But I just think about the implications of doing the opposite, encouraging a child to head down a path that feels life giving, and how transformative that can be in the trajectory of their life.

Beth Kuhn 22:00

Yeah, and I am, you know, I was playing Adelaide when I was 12 years old, and in Guys and Dolls. And it was just, it was like the experience of a lifetime. And I thought I was an adult. And I thought I was, I was just so cool. And although I will say I, I wore glasses when I was younger, and I have terrible vision, and they wouldn't let me wear my classes in the school musical. So my memories of all these musicals is actually legitimately very hazy, but, you know, in my heart they live on.

But yeah, I did it. I obviously was really into it. In high school, my high school had an incredible theater and music program. I decided with my parents approval that I would audition for, for college programs. I think my parents were really scared about that. But at the same time, they were super supportive. And I, I think that's another thing where paths diverged in a lot of people is the supportive parents, because I think that there are a lot of people out there who, you know, rightfully so, are nervous about their children entering a less conventional profession. My mom was a scientist, my dad was a history and business major. And so you know, very different for them. But they were like, "You were great in Hello, Dolly... so go ahead, try and do this for the rest of your life." So yeah, I got into the University of Michigan for a BFA in musical theater, which was an excellent program, and I was beyond thrilled to get in there. I think the whole college audition processes is really even more crazy now than it was 10 plus years ago when I auditioned, but it did it did feel ruthless at the time. So I can't imagine what kids go through today.

Davin Youngs 24:04

But that's quite a success to get into that program and that also had to continue to sort of like affirm your experience as being a talented and gifted singer who's pointed on this path to maybe one day be in her own movie version of Oklahoma.

Beth Kuhn 24:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, the thing is, that's interesting is, and this is something I've learned from you actually, is that I, I'm not sure that I ever considered myself a singer. It's kind of interesting. I really, I really liked the storytelling of it. And I felt like I was a storyteller. And I felt like singing was sort of like the vehicle to tell the story. I love to sing though. And I learned from you that I love now calling myself a singer because I never did that before. Because it is its own special way of communicating and it should be it should be held that way. But yeah, college was incredible. It was an incredible program. I learned so much there and, and the saddest thing I think about being an artist is, is that colleges is the time when you get to just study it and live in it. And, and your homework is to read beautiful work and practice and you have all the time to do it. And then when you leave, it just becomes this whole other thing.

Davin Youngs 25:41

Yeah. And and you can only know that in hindsight. But so for you, what was the other thing? Was it straight to New York after college?

Beth Kuhn 25:52

Yeah, so I did a production of Pump Boys and Dinettes in Virginia, right after I graduated. And then yeah, I moved to New York. I moved into my friend's little office and slept on a futon and got a job as a hostess and started living the you know, New York dream of trying to be an actor. And, you know, it was hard. I was non union when I graduated, which was very different from a lot of my classmates. So I had a different experience. I was like, literally sleeping on the sidewalk at 5am, waiting in line for an audition that I would end up not being seen for.

Davin Youngs 26:38

For those who are listening who might not know, what is the difference between being a union actor versus a non union actor as it relates to what you're saying?

Beth Kuhn 26:46

Yeah, sure. So I mean, the actors union is a remarkably small union of professional actors who have either done a show at a union theater that gave them their union status, or they've built up points to gain union status by working at theaters that have partial union status or partial contracts. So being a non union actor, if you consider that there were 100 actors in New York, you know, 95 of them are going to be non union, and five of them would be union. And union is Broadway, it's, it's a lot of Off Broadway, too. It's the big production contracts. It's where you, if you want to be a professional actor, you really are going to want to be in the Union eventually, because they can they control how much money you get paid, which is, you know, supposedly a living wage.

Davin Youngs 27:52

And it gets you just access to things that you wouldn't have access to otherwise. So I assume that you're talking about you went to open calls, where you had to show up in the middle of the night to essentially get a possibility of being seen. Whereas if I was a union actor, I'm like, you'd have to go straight to the front of the line.

Beth Kuhn 28:09

Yeah, you'd have a time slot and you would know when you're going and yeah, so it's a rite of passage in a way too. And I, I was not afraid of it. I was like, sort of excited by the challenge of it, because I felt in my heart that I was really kind of going to be successful. Like I, I just knew that I I wasn't the best singer. I wasn't the best dancer. I wasn't the best, you know, looking by far. But I just knew that I had this drive. I had this passion, and I knew I would get it. And, you know, the first year I did a couple little concerts and things, but really nothing. I mean, it was it was very, it was very hard. It was a lot of nights where I was just sleeping on this... I ended up moving in with a 35 year old man from London off of Craigslist, and I slept on a blow up mattress on the floor for an entire year. And I mean, he was a stranger. We weren't like together and he was just like he was very nice, but um, yeah. We're not friends anymore. I have no I really want to know where he is. Jonathan, if you're ou there, I have no idea where you are. I think he moved to China. So anyways, I ended up getting the non union tour of Legally Blonde at the end of that first year being there. And it was non union, but it was the Broadway production and they were using the Broadway everything. The choreography and the team was behind it. So it was very exciting. It was an extra exciting experience to work on that kind of show. It's such a fun such a fun show. And I got to play 1 million characters in it. It was it was truly a dream come true to do that after especially after a year of, you know, crappy sidewalk sleeping

Davin Youngs 30:19

What was your voice like at this time? What was singing like then? What do you recall about that time as a singer?

Beth Kuhn 30:25

I mean, Davin, you know, practicing then was like, just putting a sheet music on the on the stand and just belting. So it wasn't, you know, it was really bad. Like, I wasn't in this mindset of... I think I took for granted sort of this, this idea that my voice was always just there, it was always there. I didn't really have to warm up. I, you know, I could go, I could wake up really early and go in and just belt No, it was usually fine. And I just really took that for granted. My singing was really my auditioning, and I auditioned a lot. So I was always singing, but it wasn't in a way that I could look back and say, Oh, I really practiced, I really worked on my craft, you know, I was singing a lot of high belting songs from the 60s, like, Son of a Preacher Man, and I just kind of scream it out. And my voice for the most part, I didn't have a lot of anxiety about it. Because it was it was honestly really steady. It was always there. It was always there for me. My heart and my mind and stuff could be all over the place. But my my voice was always there.

Davin Youngs 32:06

Wow, yeah, isn't it so interesting that this is also a part of your story in time where you felt like your voice was just always there for you. But then if we go back to that moment, when you're at your parents house, and you've moved home, and you feel like it's gone completely, to hold that, in contrast, it's interesting to see both of those at once. I wonder if that time when you were back home, if we jump back there, had you given up on performance completely? Had the idea of being a professional performer, sort of exited your plan?

Beth Kuhn 32:44

I mean, that's hard to say. But it really does tie into what we were just talking about, because I think that my confidence in myself, was what really kept me going. And yeah, in that moment, my confidence was completely gone. And I think I really had a lot of fear, because I thought, if I don't have my confidence in myself, who's going to care? You know? I think doing and pursuing the arts is such a privilege. And it really, really is a privileged profession. What when you get to perform, it's like nothing else in the world. But there are so many people who want to do it. And if you don't have confidence in yourself, or if you don't have faith that you can perform. I mean, that's what you have to have, you have to have that. It has to be a given that you have the goods. And then beyond that, it's sort of up to fate and up to how hard you work and luck and all of those things. But I was like, if I, if I don't have the actual product...

Davin Youngs 34:00

Who am I?

Beth Kuhn 34:01

Who am I? Yeah, I felt like I felt like I didn't know myself. I was so I was so depressed. And not really. I mean, I still have some of these feelings, you know. So it's, it's, it's hard to talk about, but...

Davin Youngs 34:37

Thank you for sharing that. I think so many people, including me can relate to those feelings and that moment. I wonder though, if we might discuss further what it's been like to move on from that moment and sort of rebuild from there after surgery and speech therapy and the process of coming back to singing? Coming back home to your voice.

Beth Kuhn 35:03

Well, I'll never forget. The first time I met you. I don't know, maybe it was the first time I met you. But I do remember crying and I cry a lot. But I remember the first time I really sang for you, and you said, "How did you feel about that?" And I, it was truly just like a, like a vocal warmup that went up the scale or something. And, I remember being like, I was surprised. It wasn't that bad. And you were like, yeah. And I remember that moment. So specifically, because I think my entire journey with my voice has been just getting out of my head and out of my own way. And out of my, my just need to label every situation. So I label my voice as being bad. And if I label it as being bad, then if it's ever good, that's just a plus.

Davin Youngs 36:06

Well, I think this ties back to the idea of calling yourself a singer. Mm hmm. You know, if you don't say it, then you don't get hurt by your feelings of failure in that area.

Beth Kuhn 36:17

Um, yes. I think that I, for a couple of years here have have really hidden behind my vocal injury, and my voice journey of being like, well, I don't have to feel all of the sad, terrible feelings that come with being a performer and trying to be a performer. The guilt and the the sort of the "Am I doing what I need to be doing?" "Am I making enough money?" "Do people think I'm talented enough?" I could avoid all of that, because I was, because I had a problem with my voice. My voice was my problem. But it turns out that, you know, through us working together, I've had moments where, you know, the shade has been pulled back, and I see the clear sky in front of me, of what it used to feel like to see, you know,

Davin Youngs 37:34

Yeah, and, you know, from my perspective, the sound that I hear is not a reference to what used to be, but more a reflection of what is now and it's just the sound of a person who has committed to digging deep into their experience and getting to know their own pain and suffering as a means of potentially sharing and expressing the whole of who they are with others, you know, through this creative medium of art and voice and singing and performance. And I don't know, I just really want to applaud you for having the courage and the bravery to stick this thing out. I've known so many others who haven't been able to do it, but you have done it. And it's been a lot of work. I know. But you've really committed yourself. And as a result, yeah, you're able to tap into these moments where things feel different. And quite honestly, I know from experience that that's not the end of this story.

Beth Kuhn 38:43

No, it's definitely not and if anything, I feel like a different person. Now I feel that when I do audition for things, which for context, you know, I'm not auditioning in the same way I was before so I'm not going out for every musical and the big leads and all the musicals. I'm not there yet. I'm still on my voice journey. But I have gotten to a point at, with your help, Davin, that I can audition for a musical and I can sing in front of people and I can sing in front of people who are you know, judging me for my voice and it's not... it's much better than it was before. But I feel like a more genuine performer now because I can't hide behind like blind confidence. I am only me. I have a lot of faults and I have flaws that have to do with my voice and flaws that have to do with my soul and my anxiety and and I am not afraid now to show the cracks. Before like, I think that if someone saw the earth shattering in front of you in front of them, and it was my performance, I'm not sure that I'm afraid of that anymore. Maybe more specifically, like if I was to crack or you know, not sound so great on a song, like, I have lived this really hard, coming to terms with my voice now for so long that I am not a I'm not ashamed, I'm not embarrassed anymore. Which is really exciting.

Davin Youngs 40:35

That, to me, that's the sound of liberation.

Beth Kuhn 40:39

Yes.

Davin Youngs 40:40

You know, so many people feel victim to their voice. And to me, the key to that is twofold. One is knowing how to embody that experience of creating change with your voice. But then also, owning that your voice tells, no matter how much we try to change it, it tells this whole story of who you are. It literally carries with it all of this. And that is the most interesting thing about you. Which is exactly why I wanted to talk to you, because this is a really rich part of who you are right now. And your ability to show up with that it's going to bring so much more, you know, to whatever happens artistically creatively to the characters you play. That's just the that's the best gift that you could possibly offer, is the authentic expression of your whole story.

I'm just wondering if you might have any final words for anyone else who finds themself on a path similar to yours? What might you say to encourage them to keep on?

Beth Kuhn 42:16

Well, I mean, I think finding someone like you, who understands that the voice is more than a mathematical equation. I think I said before that I found you who, you know, you're so in tune with how your voice is, is a function of your soul, is a function of your gravity and your space on earth. It's, it's, it is who you are. And so if you're having a bad day, it could very easily reflect in your voice, and you have to work on the bad days as much as you have to work on good days. You know, it's about learning to, to sing with your full self. And I just think that finding you and finding someone who really embodies that sort of philosophy has really helped me. And I think I would encourage anyone out there dealing with vocal problems to find a teacher and to find someone to help them. But beyond that, if they can, if they can find ways to help their whole self, it's, you know, it's monumentally life changing. I can't speak in hyperbole enough.

Davin Youngs 43:46

I love that. I mean, honestly, that's what this whole thing is about that feeling where words can't quite take us. So thank you so much for sharing. And Beth, I just want to take a moment to honor your bravery, not only in your journey, but in sharing your story. And I want to continue to offer you encouragement. In your future. I just think that it's bright for you. And the possibilities of your voice are more than either you or I could possibly imagine. And so I want to offer that to you. And just also say thank you. Thank you for spending this time with me.

Beth Kuhn 44:29

Yeah, thank you, Davin.

Davin Youngs 44:35

Okay, wasn't that so good? I mean, there were elements in Beth's story that were, of course heart wrenching, but to be able to hear it through to the end, and to listen to her connect the dots between her own suffering and struggle with her voice and her final transformation in becoming more herself. What a rewarding and worthwhile journey. If you want to learn more about Beth please visit bethkuhn.com and if you want to learn more about me or connect further, check out davinyoungs.com or any of the socials, Instagram, Twitter, elsewhere. And if you like this podcast and want to support what it is that I'm doing one of the best ways in which you can do that is to rate to review to like to subscribe. This is how people find out about this space for telling our voice stories. My friends, I appreciate you. I'm grateful for your ears. And I look forward to joining you again next time. Peace.