Ep. 3 Learning to Scream | Tim McIlrath
Tim McIlrath has been singing and screaming with the band Rise Against for more than 20 years and despite the band’s success, Tim’s vocal journey has been complicated. In episode three, Tim tells how he learned to sing and scream in the 90’s punk and hardcore scene, what it’s really like to tour for so many years and the process of disassembling his voice and instrument so that he could have increased ease and longevity..
Follow and Subscribe at:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Podbean | RSS Feed
Davin Youngs 1:14
What's up, welcome back. It's me. My name is Davin. I'm the host of this podcast. It's called The Sound of You and I'm super stoked for you to listen in on this episode. In it is a conversation that I had with my friend and my client, Tim McIlrath. And quite honestly, I've never heard anyone have a conversation like this before publicly. Tim is the lead singer for the punk band Rise Against. Tim and Rise Against, they've been doing this thing for 20 years. And in this conversation, Tim takes me all the way back to the beginning to his parents basement, singing through lousy PA, learning how to scream in the punk and the hardcore scene, and then ultimately taking on the mantle of singer. He's so generous, and so forthcoming with what it's like to be on tour and quite honestly, to struggle to have days where you're not sure if your voice is going to show up for you. And then ultimately, we discuss what it was like a couple years back when Tim came to the realization that he just couldn't sustain doing what he was doing any longer. He had to create some changes. We discusse how together, we sort of took apart the machine that is his voice and put it back together in a way that would work better for him for the long haul. This conversation is full of behind the scenes knowledge about singing, touring, performing screaming... I think it's full of gold, I think you're really gonna enjoy it. One quick note there is adult language in this conversation. So with that being said, without further ado, I give to you the one and only Tim McIlrath.
Okay, so I've been down a little bit of a Tim McIlrath rabbit hole in thinking about having this conversation and I was listening to this one interview where the interviewer starts off by pointing out that you introduce yourself as the singer, or you sing with Rise Against, and you all kind of made a joke back and forth about that. You said, you do that for singers, you're part of a union of singers. I wanted to unpack that just a little bit more on the front end because clearly, that's something you've thought about. So what does that mean to you to say you sing with or you're the singer with Rise Against?
Tim McIlrath 4:06
I always think of the story... I was talking to Greg Gaffin, who's the singer of Bad Religion. He's also a professor and a doctor of like evolutionary biology. He operates on a different level than a lot of people operate on, you know, and but he's also really funny, like a really dry humor. We toured with them when we were a smaller band opening up for them and I was loading our gear out of the back of our trailer. Greg walked up to us and he was like, "Oh, Tim, I see you're loading gear." And I was like, "Yeah, Greg." He's like, "You know, that us singer, we are part of a union. It's singers and pitchers and quarterbacks and we don't load, gear." You know, and, of course, my band was just like, looking like, "Don't listen to him." He was clearly just joking around, but it was the first time like I think I was bonding with another person who does that in a band because I think when you start out, especially in punk and hardcore, everyone's kind of on a level playing field, you know? Like, we're all equal. And then as I got more, um, as the snowball kept going with Rise Against, and I was doing this more and more, I realized, like, oh, like, there's a lot of value to having conversations with other singers, in terms of all the things that we go through. Whether it's just the physical aspect of singing, the nature of trying to snake charm a crowd. There are certain people that I meet, whether it's on the street, or just people that I want to be talking to, where sometimes I was, like, Oh, I'm in Rise Against. But sometimes, I'll be like, I want to be like, I want you to know that, I sing for Rise Against, because I want I want them to know, I'm interested in what you do, through the lens of a singer. Sometimes it's just really, there's, there's like the awkwardness of being like, a very pseudo D list celebrity. You're trying to explain who you are to somebody. I mean, because, look, all they know, is Taylor Swift, or their neighbor who plays at the bar on weekends, and they don't know a lot of things in between, you know, and I'm somewhere in between all that. I'm also, I'm guilty of being very evasive about what I do, just in general, when I meet somebody at an airport or whatever, you know, when they start grilling me, and I'm just like, I, I'm just kind of a private person. Sometimes I don't want to necessarily out myself. And so I'm guilty of like, turning it into a game of 20 questions. "So, what do you do for work" and all of a sudden, you're going down a thing. And when you get to the 20th question your mind is like, yes, I'm the guy. I'm the voice that you hear. You figured me out?
Davin Youngs 6:58
Well, I think that so interesting, because I do think that there's a way that singers are exposed in a way that instrumentalists aren't and it's not like a better or worse thing, it's just a different thing. But that when you do reveal yourself as the voice of something, there is a part of your humanity, a part of who you are as a person that seems suddenly exposed. And, and I just thought that comment was really interesting. Because, you know, a lot of people that know me have known that this is part of my philosophy on life that I introduced myself as a singer for that very reason to push myself up against that discomfort of "Yeah, well, what do you sing? And what does it sound like? And what does that mean?" So when I heard you say that I was, I was interested in that. But I'm also interested in this thought that the scene that you come out of, which is a very specific scene from a very specific time... this idea of, of equality amongst its members, who represented a certain subset of people. But I wonder if you can think about that early on, as it related to your first experiences singing in a band. I mean, how did you relate to being a singer in the early days?
Tim McIlrath 8:15
I didn't want to be a singer, I remember that. I remember thinking that that seems like a really tall order, you know, and I didn't qualify myself as a singer. And anybody who has had the pleasure of hearing my early bands knew that I wasn't much of a singer. And so it was like, I remember thinking, that'd be really cool to play guitar in a band, and write songs, and I would get somebody, you know, some good looking dude would be up there, and he would be out there singing, uh, belting the songs out, and I would just be the guy behind him. That sounded like a good idea, but you know, and I had done enough stuff with enough friends, trying to find that person. In the meantime, you know, like, when you're trying to get someone to do something, that you want it to happen the way you want to happen. If they're not doing it, you at some point, you say, "I'll just do it." nd that was me listening to other people sing. It was kind of like, "This isn't... No, you should do it different. No, wait a minute, I should just be doing this because I can't sit here and pull the strings." And I remember that was the moment where I was like, I don't think that I'm any good at this. But I do feel like I have an instinct in terms of like, what I want it to sound like and that's kind of how I got into singing was just kind of, I don't know, sort of like just pushed into it, you know, in a way and grew up in a really cool scene that allowed me to grow as a singer, without expecting me that having those expectations on me like from day one was very beneficial to be in a place where like, everybody was allowed to be vulnerable, like you said, it was allowed to be like, make mistakes. We were, we were punk rock and hardcore, so we were supposed to sound a little broken and messed up. You know, I mean, there was like, there was a lot of margin for error to be like things that you do alone in your room creatively when you take chances and risks, you know, that seemed like we could take chances and there was not a lot of judgment on that.
Davin Youngs 10:23
One of your first bands, Baxter, I went back and listened to the tape, which has been uploaded to the internet, which was awesome to listen to. But it's like, you know, you're constantly doing this dance between screaming and singing, you know, and, and whenever you're singing, it is just like, all in. There aren't, there aren't quiet moments in any of that.
It's funny when you talk about it, the vulnerability of it, because there is such an intensity to the risk of making that sound that you have to be all in, like, you can't you can't half scream. And so from your very first sort of music making experiences, it seems like you were all in by the nature of what it was that you were doing.
Tim McIlrath 11:19
Yeah, music was very emotional to me and that was also happening at a time where I was with some close friends and we were just playing in the basement and having a good time. And like, I mean, that band Baxter, it was just us in like my parents basement, playing music for hours. Just hours non stop, like, and I remember those moments, and they're just as rewarding as any show I've ever played.
No one was listening. We didn't care. And you couldn't stop us. And we were going to come back again and do it tomorrow. Like it was just really gratifying, really cool part of my life, and we happen to channel it into into song form. You know, friends are camaraderie, chemistry, and life is camaraderie and chemistry, and it's always sort of fleeting, right? Like, you've have ebbs and flows of your life where you had a good group of friends and you guys were all firing on all pistons. And it was awesome. And then something happened, someone started dating somebody or like, you know, like, I feel like we managed to harness that and make music with it, So, I'm super attached to it because of that, because it reminds me of some really fun times of my life with like some of my best friends and the music was very primal, and just emotional. And I'll tell you what else too, when you play in a band like that, um, everyonem the drummer, the guitar player, the bass player, everyone's got their own version of like, shitty equipment that you bring in, the drummers got his drum set, and we're all just kids when everything fancy, you know, but we got enough. We've got our hand me down guitars, our busted amplifiers we bought at a garage sale and they wwere probably the most valuable thing you owned. But at that age, you know, no one spent a lot of moneyor had a good PA.
That seems like a frivolous thing to own or spend money. It's about as rewarding as spending money on a couch or like a coffee table here. I mean, you're just like, Oh, great. I have a couch. We already blew our budget on instruments and like the microphone. That was like from Radio Shack, you know, I mean, the PA was stolen from a church, you know, like, all that stuff. And so vocals, you never really heard them.
Davin Youngs 13:36
Yeah, and I think that that's like such a interesting part of growing into any sort of amplified music, which is everything other than operatic music. You know, the microphone and the PA system and monitors like these make or break you early on in terms of your relationship to your sound. And this is what I was thinking about, actually, we talked about sort of equality amongst the group's members because it's not equal, you know, the, the guitar can continue to turn up the drums can be banged louder, you know, all of that has, especially in terms of amplification has a different sort of power that it can muster than your voice but traditionally, in a band setting the voice is supposed to be the outstanding sound,
Tim McIlrath 14:23
Right? And I feel like I was able to grow a place where people couldn't really hear me I wasn't under the microscope. So like for people who aren't singers it's kind of the equivalent of going from singing into a crappy amplifier where nobody can really hear you versus putting headphones on and having your vocals isolated. So they're really under the microscope. That's the difference between like you picking up your iPhone and trying to take a picture and all of a sudden you hit selfie mode and your faces in a picture really close up. You're like, "Oh my God." When your voices is under that microscope mean, like, you do things differently unless you had the confidence to sing. You know, many of us would hear our voices, you know, especially at an early stage that when you're 15 years old or whatever, unless you're really gifted and be like, I don't want that. I don't like that, you know? And so I was able to develop out from under the microscope. Yeah. And I think about that, because that's why saying I sing as loud as I sing, because I had to be heard that music was emotional, and it was just kind of a, it was the state of the technology we were like, kind of working with, you know, at the center.
Davin Youngs 15:40
This will seem like a very strange correlation. But Ethel Merman, right? One of the famous voices of time. She developed her sound because it was prior to amplification, she developed this belting sound to carry over orchestras, popular orchestras that had trombones and trumpets, and to be able to be in a hall and be heard. So that, you know, amplification is actually a rather new invention in the history of music. And so it is interesting how voices have evolved to, to adjust to what it is that the expectations are.
Tim McIlrath 16:34
I love that. I've never heard that before. Because I feel like when I when I say like what I just said to you how I learned how to sing because of my I had a crappy amplifier and a bad PA, you know, that's kind of what it was, it was a physical way to figure it out, you know, you were dealing with what you had, it felt like I was I was just blending with the instruments. And nobody was really hearing me very clearly, I felt very lucky to have that because I don't know, I would have been a giant hurdle to get over if I was expected to like the isolate, like right away.
Davin Youngs 17:05
Well, so then if we look at your sort of history of groups that you're part of the next group was this group called Arma Angelus and what made me laugh when I was researching this is on Wikipedia, someone has created like a chart of members during time and what they did, and you are labeled as the quote unquote, clean vocalist, whereas Pete Wentz your band member is the unclean vocals. And that just made me laugh because there's this delineation that someone came up with around sounds that were more sung, and then sounds that were more screamed. I was curious if you guys talked about that, if you thought about it at the time.?
Tim McIlrath 17:41
Yeah, cuz at that point in my life, everything I was listening to or my friends was, was screaming hardcore. Almost nobody sang, and so that made me feel a little bit like a black sheep, you know? I mean, cuz I was like, I want to sing, like, I still want to sing, you know, but people didn't have a lot of use for me in my scene, as like, a singer, because it was like, we need screamers you know? Even when I was an Arma, like I hadn't, like, developed like a really good scream yet. I didn't really try to do it, basically, you know, because I wasn't really compelled to do it at that point. And I remember being in the studio with Pete and all those guys. And, and he'd be like, McIlrath, get your voice out here get like, some of that, like, pretty Saves the Day stuff on here, you know?
I could sing and nobody else could. And I remember just being like, those are his words. I'm singing to like, those recordings we did. And I went in there. And it was like this weird, like, I remember them being like, "Whoa, he can do something we can't do." I was only around that time that I start to think about myself as doing something that somebody else can't do, because hardcore was very egalitarian at that point. And so it's just kind of, in my head, it was almost like, we're all able to do everything, and we're just choosing to do these things. I could play drums if I want. And that's not true at all. But, you know, like, um, you could sing if you want, you know, and it was at that point, I realized, oh, like, this might be something that not everybody had. I remember those those times.
Davin Youngs 19:23
And I really like that consideration that, like, it was almost a choice that you did what you did, because I think that there was something about that scene at that time that really, even if even if it wasn't technically true, that was sort of the ethos of, of operation. And again, like there's almost like a fearlessness that can come with that, right? Like if you actually believe that to be true. Like you can go all in on the front end, you don't feel like it's not now if you look at the you know, the voice or something like that, it really seems like there's something that you have to achieve, but when you come out of a scene like that, you're more trying to capture an energy idea. And and your vocals were a symptom of that energy. And so it's cool to hear you reflect on exploring. Well, what other sounds are there?
Tim McIlrath 20:11
Right? Yes, that was it was it was, it was something that I've only thought about later in my life. At the time, it was just this kind of, I don't know, it's just all happening all at the same time. I remember after arm Angeles, these guys asked me to play in their bandwidth them, which was a short live band never, we never really did a lot. And they asked me to sing it was the first time anybody had asked me to be a singer in their band, you know, which I was, I kind of flattered by that stuff, I'm telling you at that point, I still didn't consider myself like a singer. But they really wanted me to screen you know. And so I remember spending my time in that band, sort of developing that like figuring out how to be like a screamer.
And then, at that point, I kind of had another kind of skill set, I guess. So when, when Rise Against rolled around, and I had done a band called The Killing tree as well, too, which was very screaming, by time Rise Against rolled around, I had a few different, like weapons in my arsenal, you know, like I was, I knew how to sing. And now I knew a little bit more about how to scream. And so it was kind of perfect timing. When, when Rise Against was up to bat because it was like, Okay, I can do a lot of different things with these songs, which is great, because the first record Joe roll the music for but what's great about Joe's songwriting is that he was he's never been locked into a specific style. Like he's like, happy to write a really fast hardcore song. And he's happy to write a really pretty three chord poppy song, you know, yeah.
Davin Youngs 21:48
Joe who is your bassist.
Tim McIlrath 21:49
Yeah, sorry. For you listeners. Yeah. He's bassist as in like co collaborator in the band here. And he writes a lot of the music. And so that was fun. Because I was like, Well, I can scream over these fast, punky hardcore songs, I can sing over your pretty three chord songs, you know, we can bust out an acoustic guitar if we want and like I can manage that. And that was fun. Because it was like, everything was so monolithic, back then in our scene was like, if you are this kind of band, you do this kind of thing. And I know, like, when you zoom out, we rise against still probably seems very monolithic, you know. But like, for us in that world, it was like, it really was like, we had a bunch of different sounds happening that a lot of bands weren't doing, at the time, and bands were pressured to, I think, have just one specific sound. And you may be punished. If you were, if you were too many different sounds. And so I feel like we kind of got away with it somehow.
Rise Against felt very free, it was like, we were able to just sort of like cast aside that stuff. And it was like, I don't know, I love being a part of it, cuz a lot of my friends had like, kind of started to evolve from like, punk and hardcore. And as a Chicago in the late 90s. So indie rock was starting to get really big and a big deal. And instead of hanging out a fireside bow, we were hanging out at double door instead, or lounge jacks, you know, like this, it was changing, you know, like, people were growing up a little bit. But I remember, I remember liking that music and being like, I like all music. I really, really like the kind of guy who was at all kinds of different shows. But I remember when rides against rolled around, it was like, I was craving like the all ages punk of like my youth, and I say my youth, I was like 21. But I was like, I remember thinking like, All my friends are, are starting to sit around bars and tapping their shoes to like mellow bands, you know, right. And I missed the stage dives and I miss the pits. I miss the sweat. And I miss all that. And so it was great. Because when Joe approached me with all his music, I was like, Yes, let's, let's do this. Let's I don't know if there's an audience for it. Nobody wants to hear us do this. But let's do that this will be fun. And so that was kind of the the nucleus or the ball of energy that sort of that put Rise Against into motion.
Davin Youngs 24:30
So when you talk about screaming and singing and Rise Against, is that all stuff you just sort of figured out on your own taught yourself in in the quiet of your bedroom, where How did that happen for you?
Tim McIlrath 24:40
Yes. Yeah. Like you're the first person I've talked to about how to sing properly. So and we met in 2018. Two years ago. Yeah. So it's exact never Yes. No, I yeah, I guess I should clarify. Like I never spoke with anybody about singing and not Nobody professionally, you know, but not even like, I didn't talk to my friends about hearing it right? gonna talk to like my roommates or the people in my band, you know, we didn't talk about it, we just, I just did it, you know? And yeah, it was like, I didn't have a lot of critique. I didn't know what I'm doing right or doing wrong. I just was doing it. And it didn't seem like a problem. And also punk rock and hardcore the way it rejects all like, conventional, conventional thinking, like the idea of being trained to do it seems like, we're not a punk rocker hardcore thing to do. And so it wasn't cool. If you were, if you were a trained musician, you know, it was cooler if you weren't, you know?
Davin Youngs 25:41
Yeah, and I'll say, if you were to come into a, you know, most any voice teacher that you would find, like in the suburbs of Chicago, or something, and bring what it is that you were doing at the time, they would have told you to stop doing it, or you know, what you would have not been helpful to you, especially as your band continue to sort of, like grow its audience and, but there's a reason that people have that that reaction, but at the same time, it's like there is there is the this physical act of singing and screaming, and there's a coordination to it. And there's a way to do it. And I think that's what's so interesting about you. And your story is that you did figure that out in some way that had some sustainability for you over time. And it's, and it's a real testament to our ability to sort of experiment and play with the voice. And I assume that there are probably singers that you were trying to emulate early on, is that true?
Tim McIlrath 26:37
I guess I think like Fugazi was really big to me like Ian McKay. And just because he had gone from like, Minor Threat to Fugazi, so there was a lot of like, there was really fast punk stuff, which I thought was the best of punk. And then he went to Fugazi, he was happy to like play around with mellow parts and just singing it in his style. I don't know, he found a way to sing that was just as confrontational as screaming. You know, I mean, and so I love that. So yeah, there were a couple singers out there, I guess was I was trying to be, but I also knew that I didn't sound like anybody.
Davin Youngs 27:24
Yeah, that also is a gift if you can own that early on. And realize that because so many people spend so long imitating, which can be useful in terms of experimentation, but it also can be a death sentence. If you get caught in the trap of trying to imitate.
Tim McIlrath 27:40
By the time when you and I grew up. Um, the idea of recording something was a lot more complicated than it is now, you know. And so I remember just thinking like it like, I don't know, if 13 or 14, I remember thinking, like, I kind of like singing like to myself, mostly, but I was kind of I wonder what my voice sounds like. You don't know what it sounds like, you're like somebody else. I remember doing the thing like recording to the boombox I remember just like singing into it. I'm like, I wonder if that's my voice. And that wasn't even a good representation. Cuz I was. So like, I'm being really shy about and quiet. And like, that's not how I sing, you know, but like, You don't? Well, all you want to do is sound like somebody else, all you want to do is you want to sound like your favorite singers. And so what you don't think about at the time is that's not what people want, you know, they want you to sound like you
Davin Youngs 28:52
Rise Against has now been together for 20 years. And that's a lot of years of being with the band. But I wonder if we can dig into early on because I think part of the success of Rise Against is that you guys have performed so much over that time. And, you know, I'm sure early on, that meant playing to clubs that didn't have a lot of people in them or in traveling, you know uncomfortably in vans and so forth. But I wonder if you can just think about like, about singing through that time. What was that like? What, how were you aware of your voice? How were you able to keep on top of things? How did that show up for you?
Tim McIlrath 29:31
When I think back I think back just to how alone I was around those times here. I mean, I had the benefit of youth on my side, you know, so I could do things physically, that you just do when you're young, which is like playing a show, load all your gear in a sweaty t shirt in like 18 degrees in Edmonton, you know, in the middle of a snowstorm while you're just offstage with your hairdripping wet. Sell more merch to a bar with like 50 people where no one's even buying your merch. And then get in the van and drive from like midnight to like four in the morning, like all night just listening to music, and then maybe stopping like a Super 8, sleeping from like four to like 11am. And then getting back in the van and trying to make it to soundcheck in the next town, you know, and then do nothing. And then you're holding you're working, you know, you're loading gear, you're unloading gear, you're setting up your merch, you're trying to get food, you're maybe do an interview. And so yeah, it was like these long days. And then my voice was not anything anybody anybody cared about. And like, and that's something I really thought about.
You are expected to then go and then put on a great show. That's why we're here. Right? All this is meant for you to just basically pick up that microphone one when it's time and just impress these people. And you might have just one chance to do it. Because who knows if you'll ever be back in this town ever again, if your band even last that long, you know. And so it was a lot of pressure. But I think what was what like what, like I said, I was so young that you were just resilient, you bounce back for everything, but I remember just constantly being I don't know, just being in over my head, you know, and not knowing anything about singing. And just really, I think really lucky now that what I was doing was for the most part working, you know, and then as I got older, at a band got more successful, there were a lot more demands on what I was doing. And then our shows got longer.
That's the thing too, is that people don't think about is that, for the first few years of being our band, I think a lot of bands, you're only responsible for like a 25 or 30 minutes set, you know, like maybe eight songs or whatever you know, and then when you kind of move up the marquee and your support slot or your eventually headline. Now you're expected to play for like an hour and a half. And that's a whole different world to sing for an hour and a half, you know, to sing 18 or 19 songs versus singing like six to eight songs. And I remember that being a tall order.
Davin Youngs 32:27
Well, I even think about so the type of music that you do, and the way that you sing. If I were to give an analogy that might be useful. It's like doing like the vault in gymnastics, like each song is like one vault, okay. And you know, in gymnastics, they only do two in a night because that single vault takes so much out of you. But when you're doing a song that's like, all in and you're screaming, and you're just like giving full on energy the whole time, there's a price to pay for that, you know, there's a it's taxing, but your music tends to be that the bulk of the time. So you doing an hour to an hour and a half set is different than a jazz singer. Singing my funny Valentine is not the same as the music that you're putting out into the world. And so yeah, I can really sympathize with that experience. And I think if you look over time, you're not going to see a whole ton of examples of people that do what you do. For as long as you do for that very reason like that. It's a very difficult thing to sustain over time. And I was looking back at your it's funny because I was looking back at your catalog. And I noticed so there's a song that you still play a lot now called swing life away, that you released in 2004. And to my ear, that's the first time you sort of touched on a down moment in your music, like every song until that point is like full on hardcore. And then this moment, it's like it's almost like Elliott Smith showed up. Right? But I was thinking about that in terms of maturity and like how you put together an album and a show and it's like, you know that in some ways that might have I wonder if that was a relief to have a song like that in the cannon that you could sing.
Tim McIlrath 34:31
When we started playing that song live, it was like okay, I get a little break. But it was also nerve wracking because a song like was far more under that microscope. Yeah, cuz the rest of it was just, I relied on pure volume as a singer. I mean, I relied on pure strength, muscle volume, it was like, and that is what people seem to react to, you know, when I would go on stage and I would just busting veins in my neck. I mean, like, that's kind of like, what got a response out of people. And so to do anything different was sort of a risk to me, you know. And I also was afraid that that's not, that's not what people value in me as a singer. It's not why they're showing up not shocked to see me sing quiet, they're starting to see me like to be a muscle and flex it, you know. And so Swing was like, it was a different thing. There was nights where it was like, the best part of my night. You know what I mean? And there were nights where it was really nervous about it.
Davin Youngs 35:44
Yeah, I think that there is like, I just come back to this word exposed, like when you strip it down, you know, your voice is suddenly exposed? Yeah, in a different way. And and it's funny, because there is like, this duality of experience in that moment where yeah, you don't suddenly have to bring all this energy, but then you're being seen and heard differently. And yeah, and and that is, there's there can be a lot of pressure put on that. Tell me about some of those nights where it was like, Oh, shit, I got to sing Swing Life Away? What could you recall about that feeling? Or that sensation? Or what's going on in your mind at that time?
Tim McIlrath 36:20
Oh, man, I'm sure lots of singers can relate. But like, you know, there are nights where, you know, you don't have it, you know, nights for like, you know, by like soundcheck, you don't have it, you know, like, Oh, I did some damage last night, or they're over the previous week, or whatever. Or I stayed up all night, and hung out with friends or like, you know, at that point, at that time people were still smoking in bars, you know, for like years of our band that was like, really, really insane on vocalists, you know, just all that smoke, that you're just living and sleeping in the back of a van, you know, all that stuff. And there were nights where, like, I don't, it's, it's just the worst feeling ever. I don't know how to explain it here. I mean, like, it really, for me to just because like, it's the thing that you love to do, and you can't do it. And you know, you can't do it, you know that, like when you go for that note, you know, that you're not going to you can't hit it, and you're not hitting it before you walk on stage. And you see people out there just waiting for you. You know, and it's like, every moment of your day is excruciating, when like, you know, you don't have it, you know, it's like, every, from the moment the car start pulling in the parking lot in parking, to the moment they start lining up and buying t shirts to the moment that they're waiting in the front. And you can see the expectation on their faces, and you realize, like, I don't have it 100% tonight, you know, and then that's when you either rely on like pure adrenaline, or you just try to do your best, you know, zone.
I've only canceled really just a handful of shows in my 20 years, which is like each and each show I cancelled it was a dagger through my heart, by the way, like each one was, like one of the hardest decisions I had to make. Because it was like, it was accepting failure. And it was disappointing people. There also is a lot of like financial things, there's a lot of people who like, put a lot of into their thought effort into making this thing happen or relying on this thing happening. And it's just me who's shutting it down. You know, maybe because Joe could still play bass. You know, Zach is Darren brand could still play drums, everybody can do their part, except for me, it's just the worst, just the lowest of the low. When you're when you're there, like I'm just, I'm not a happy person to like be around though. And in those moments when like, you know, that you don't, that you don't have, and it made me want to eliminate those moments, you know, I mean, it made me want to figure out... Well, it made me want to call you and be like, I don't want to ever experience this ever again.
Davin Youngs 38:52
Yea, as the band gets bigger as it did, and you start to show up to gigs with a lot more people, the number of cars pulling in the parking lot increases, that sort of pressure and anxiety increases. And, you know, you've recounted to me before that like, as time went on, and you're staying in nicer hotels and the Super 8, you know, it's just like almost that feeling of like you need to just hide away until that moment that you have to be on stage because everything might take away anything else you might do might take away from the voice that you feel like you don't have or the sound or the energy and and that becomes like a yo yo experience where you're in the isolation of of touring and then suddenly you're at the center of the fire on stage just expected to produce. Yeah, the sound.
Tim McIlrath 39:44
It's insane. It's an insane, dynamic. You know, I've had those tours where I've just been like, totally reclusive and a total hermit and you're like you're just seeing me on stage. I'm spending most of my day just trying to like, warm up and be smart about it. doing lots of things that are probably pure placebo. I mean, like, they're not fixing or solving anything, but like, and then it gets just the nerves. I mean, where you're just like you're spending, you know, 22 and a half hours a day, just being really nervous. You know, that's just, that's an awful feeling. You know, like, I want to, I want to go out there confident and excited. And the nights that I go out there, excited those, like, there's nothing greater, you know, than doing what I do. It's the best job in the world. And so those Yeah, that that dynamic is, I don't feel a lot of pressure. I don't think about that pressure, you know, I never did. But those are the moments where you start thinking about that pressure, because people like are always like, before I go on stage, like, Aren't you nervous? And I was like, No, I guess I'm not, I guess I am. But I'm like, but like, I don't feel it the way you think I feel it, but in there, but then there are moments where you're like, Oh, that's what they meant.I could I feel it right now. Like, it's like, I'm not gonna able to deliver this.
Davin Youngs 41:06
There are two things that this brings my mind: One is just sort of back to our original idea that there's an embodied nature to singing. So your body is the sound and your body has a limitation, right and what it can produce and, and on any given day, if you've exceeded that limitation, there's a, you pay a tax for that, like there's a price to pay, right. And when you're a part of a machine, like the music industry, it isn't always sympathetic to that, that price, or the pressures that we put upon ourselves, you know, the expectations we put upon ourselves that we need to achieve certain thing. But the best analogy I have is like lifting weights, like once you've lifted too heavy of weights, like you can't keep lifting, like you have to rest, you have to rest your muscles, that's the only way to get back and potentially lift heavier weights. But where people get into a lot of trouble is they keep lifting, even when they're tired. And I know that you've seen some of that out in the world on tour with other people where it's like, you you keep muscling ahead until you can't muscle anymore.
Tim McIlrath 42:10
Yeah, like I have a lot of peers who have had major vocal problems that requires surgery, whether those are like, nodes, or polyps, or all these things, multiple surgeries. And these are my friends and like we we share the stages together. And we did all the same things. And I'm always looking at like them, like holy crap, like, wait, if you ended up in the hospital, like, Am I gonna end up in the hospital? You know, like, what are? What are you doing? Because it seems like we do a lot of the same things, you know, and so that didn't work out for you. So that stuff made me nervous. You know, that's when I started like actually, finally meeting with like a rock Doctor in like Beverly Hills and be like, "Hey, is anything going on down there I should be worried about?" And so he always gave me a clean bill of health. That was reassuring, but sometimes like, it was not reassuring. Like, I wanted him to tell me I had something going on, because it would explain other things. Like working with a vocal coach, like yourself, change my life, right. But it was a lot of work. And I wanted to avoid that work. I didn't want to do that work, you nobody wants to work, I wanted a doctor to say, Oh, I found this weird thing and your vocal cord. And when I remove it, you'll be a great singer. You know, because that seemed really easy. It was like, Oh, that's just a surgery. And like, you know, this is my problem this whole time, like any challenge I had was related to this medical thing. You know, that's what I was keeping my fingers crossed for, you know. And so when that doctor would be like, actually, you're in fine shape. Your vocal cords are great. And I'd be like, Oh, man, you're telling me, I gotta go work, I gotta go do the work to like, figure this thing out. And that was when I started doing the work.
Davin Youngs 43:54
Or even like the pressure that you should be able to like that, that there's something you're supposed to know, it's like that can be really daunting to think about what you would have to do to make change to create change, especially after you've been doing it for so long. The other piece too, is that getting surgery, would be so great if that was a solution, but like you said, a lot of times these people will get surgery. And if you don't change the behavior, the problem re emerges.
Tim McIlrath 44:28
If that guy told me? Yeah, I can do a surgery and you'll be a great singer. Well, yeah, okay, let's do that. You know, and yeah, that was that was what that answer felt like me when he was like, No, you, you, you have the tools. Your voice is capable of doing whatever you want it to do. So whatever it's not doing is your own damn fault. So start fucking doing it. You know, that's what that was like that sobering kind of like moment or like, Okay, I need to talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about then, and start figuring this thing out.
Davin Youngs 45:00
So let's talk about that moment in time where we met. And, you know, you had been given a clean bill of health and but you, from what I recall, were sort of in a place where you're like, this just isn't working. Right now this isn't working anymore.
Tim McIlrath 45:15
Yeah. It's funny, I probably looked you up for almost a year before actually called you here. I mean, because I really didn't know where to start. And I even actually asked, like, people I knew in LA, you know, like, who, where do I go? No, go, you go to this guy in Beverly Hills, or you go to this guy in Santa Monica and go to this guy in Tarzana. And, you know, I'm like, I, I'm not flying out there. Sorry. I'm about Chicago. And they were like, well, we don't know. And, I remember looking up your name and being like, I don't know if this is my guy. It took me a long time to actually make that phone call. And then I did. And there were moments, like you said, where I felt like, this isn't gonna work.
To give an analogy, it would be like, if I was like, a car, and you started taking it apart, start taking the engine apart, vertical pieces apart, you know. And now I'm looking at that car, which is like, my baby, right? It's like, I love this car. And I'm watching Davin, take it all apart. You know what I mean? And it's like, it was scary as shit to watch that happen. I was like, What are you doing? Like this thing? This thing got me to where I am. And this is my performance car. Now you're the engines over here. And like the tires, were over there and like, and sometimes I was like, I need to drive it this weekend. I mean, like, I need to take it somewhere, like I would show and like, it's all in pieces. And I remember, I mean, you saw me in those moments, I was panicked. You know, I was like, I don't know how to do this. And I and I know now that like, you were like, well, you have to do this. And I know there's gonna be some awkward moments, and there are gonna be weekends that you can't drive this car, because that's where we're at. But if you want to get this thing running again, we're gonna have to take it apart. And you got to deal with it, you know, and you were and you said it way nicer than that. But like, but now I know, in my head, I was like, that's what we were doing. And so those moments were it was panic sometimes, you know, but then I but then enough things happened. little glimpses of like sunlight came through. And I was like, wait, that worked. Or like, he was right about that. Like everything you told me? I could tell. There was no bullshit. You know, there was no there was no smoke and mirrors. what you were saying was working and when and that's what kept me all coming back. Because it was like, Okay, this is little by little this is happening.
Davin Youngs 47:56
That crapshoot element. That is the worst from a singing standpoint. Where and, and especially I think like in the world that you live in, people really count on your voice not only for it sound but for what it represents, you know, Rise Against stands for, for, for anti establishment in so many ways, right and political positions, and right and so forth. And so, so people are very, they do put a different type of spotlight on you not in just in terms of skill, but in terms of like, we need Tim's voice. And so I thought about that a lot with the pressure that that you must feel and notice along the way, but then I think about every time that we would work together and literally, yeah, you'd come in and panic, but then I would always be like, dude, you sound great. Like, I could owe it to him, from my perspective as an outsider to be like, Oh, no, this is exactly getting better. And that was what always impressed me about you is you would keep showing up, I think about those concerts where your voice was struggling for whatever reason, but you still there, you're still showing up, it's a part of, it's a part of your work ethic that you've developed over time. And, and, and it was really impressive to me. And I also would just like to note that I'm very aware of the disassembling part of the car. And, and I tried to say that, like, I think I probably said something very much like that in our very first session, right? But I wonder if you might think about, like, those glimpses of light. What were they like? How would you describe those for someone who hasn't been down this journey?
Tim McIlrath 49:30
Oh man, when we started working together, you were just having me do really kind of mellow, warm ups that were almost like more about breath control. And just more about connecting from note to note, when I would feel those things. It would they were like the first time I really was paying attention to how they felt, you know, and then I realized like, Oh, look, if I could do that. If I could get to those places and feel that resonation I could activate So then maybe I can make something happen with this. And then I think that when I started applying what you were telling me to just actually is coming back to my studio and just singing some songs, which there are times where like singing, some of my songs required a lot of warm up or like required, you know, it just to be a good day, you know, and that was making it happen. And then saw, I started doing it more consistently, I was like, Oh, this is less of a challenge. Those were the pieces that were coming through. Because I was on tour, a lot of time we were that we were working together. And so showing up to a show, and just applying some of those things that you were telling me as I stepped up to the microphone, and realized that they were working, you know, I just kind of, I think like, just taking my foot off the gas just a little bit, you know, where it's like, I feel like I was pedal to the metal, the time, that set time started, the time we walked off stage, I was like, I am pedal to the metal, I'm expected to be pedal to the metal, you know, I mean, like, I have to go in 60 miles an hour, like the whole fucking time. And if you are not, people will not come back and see you again. You know what I mean? And then I realized that I didn't need to do that, now that I need to do that. But I could not do that and people weren't really noticing that I wasn't doing it. I was managing that ferocity without just burying the needle. And then I realized I was like, Oh, this is more fun. I can accomplish these songs in a more, I can execute them in a more accurate way. And then I can stop thinking about it, and just play a damn show for people. That's like what you were talking about. It's like people, my voice is something different to them. It's not just like, can you hit these notes here, I mean, they mean something different. That's what I want to focus on. I don't want people to be thinking about my voice when I'm on stage, or my process or whatever I want them to be thinking about what that song means to them, what the message means to them. That's what I want people to focus on.
Davin Youngs 52:06
I think too, though, because you've been at this for so long, but there's this longevity piece that you know, you've you've there, your fans observationally speaking have literally grown up around you all. And I mean, if you check like YouTube comments, it's incredible. because inevitably, there'll be someone and be like I was at the first Rise Against, show like, there's always someone talking about that element of your music. And, and your voice represents that sort of aging process. And growing up, you know, like the sound. And so there's an astrology that people have for that older sound, which is impossible to achieve as you yourself get older. But there is a possibility of remaining youthful in the voice if you connect to the truth of your body in this moment. And that's when you say to me that you had never thought about the way the sound felt or the way you know that it felt to connect with your breath, things like that. That to me is the key. It's a mindfulness, right, it's a mindfulness of what it is to make the sound. And that is the key to actually sounding younger, longer, because you're actually putting in the amount of effort that's really required to make the sound that you want to make. And so many people over exert until they can't exert especially in the type of music that you make. They over exert until they can't exert anymore. And then the whole thing just crashes and burns.
I was thinking about the analogy of the car, it's like, you know, and a lot of times people love cars that look junky. Do you know what I mean? And there's nothing wrong with that. But you also need to be able to acknowledge that and it takes a lot of humility, you know, to do that. And I really appreciate about you that at that point, that you were able to do it. And I also acknowledge that it is so important that you were willing and able to do it. I think it is contingent upon your age and everything you've been through like that we only arrive at the points that we arrive at when we're ready to arrive there. And I just think about that sort of moment that we connected that you were ready for whatever reason, because I've worked with a lot of people who aren't ready, and and that's okay. It's totally okay. But there has to be this confluence of readiness, need, ability, desire, you know... time to all come together.
Tim McIlrath 55:00
I had to do something different, like I just needed to like, there was like, my life was Groundhog Day, you know, and it was such a challenge, I just knew that there must be some some other way. And there are even points, there were ebbs and flows of our time workout or where I feel like I would like, get over a hurdle. And I'd be like, I'm good. Now, that'd be celebrating, like that worked. And then I would fall back into a pit, like somewhere like, oh, and then I'd be like cursing the whole process, like, oh, it didn't work, you know, or, and then I, it took me a long time, I'd like and remember, we've been working there for almost like, I think, almost like two years at that point. And there were things that were just coming together, even after I probably told you like, it's all good. Now, you're I mean, but there are new things that were happening. And I remember you saying that, like, I didn't want to intimidate you at the time. But this is like a couple year process problem, you know, and I don't, I didn't want you to walk back out the door and say, well, then screw that, you know, and it but it was it, like, there were things, you had to show me a lot of things, then I just had to sort of keep singing and figure those things out. Because the voice is such a strange thing. And you know, this better than I do, in terms of like, it's such a hard thing to describe and explain and like, you know, like, if you're showing someone how to throw a baseball, you can literally your arm goes here, you know, I mean, I want it to go here, you know, I mean, the voice is all its internal, it's inside. Yeah. So what you have is like this magic that's able to communicate, like these intangible ideas about what's happening inside. And then that requires language, you know, mean, that requires like a specific language. And that will, you'll be able to communicate that to somebody else. And that's a tricky thing to do. And that's something that I think at that point in my life, I had never spoken that language with anybody. And so when I finally understood it, it started to make more sense. And then it's, you know, it's, it's such a personal thing to you know, your voice is such, like, there are times where, like, I avoid talking about my voice, and interviews and that kind of thing, because I don't want someone thinking about it when they see me play. Like, I think this conversation is important. You know, I mean, especially if there's, I would have loved to have heard this conversation like 10 years ago, you know, man, so like, if I can help somebody else, that's amazing. But when you come to my show, I don't want you thinking about my process, or like, my voice or whatever, I just want you to have a good time.
Davin Youngs 57:20
Well, it's so important that the voice and this is where I think a lot of singers get lost, like your voice is never the most important thing about the song. Your voice is simply a conduit for expression, you know, for the story. Songs are always stories that are supposed to be told. And you know, even if the song is without lyrics, right, it's about conveying an emotion and mood, a feeling. And from a from a singing perspective, or even and this is what's so interesting to me about screaming, for instance, right? Like, never Is there a more obvious emotion, emotional bursts than like, when you use screaming in a song or in a sound. But it's, it's there for a very specific purpose. And that's meant to convey a feeling and emotion and mood, and it has value for that reason. But when we experience limitations in our voice, it limits our ability to actually express. So those times when you feel least successful as a singer, where you feel like things are stuck, where you feel like you can't hit the note, that's when people are actually gonna notice your voice. People will not notice your voice. And I'm saying this in the global you sense people won't notice our voice when we feel like we're not noticing our voice when we're able to just express freely what it is that we're trying to express. Now, as a performer, there are certainly moments where you got to step back and go like, wait. And that's one of the things that you know, you and I talked about, which I think is an interesting thing for the type of music that you do to have those moments on stage where you go, Okay, take a pause here, because it feels like you do need to be pedal to the metal the whole time. But it's just not a realistic expectation of yourself.
Tim McIlrath 59:05
Like as a young person I was able to be pedal to the metal, you know, I mean, even pull it off, but then it's like, and then there's the aesthetic of it. You're like I started realizing this is better not being pedal the metal. This sounds better. People are gonna like this better. And going back to like your junky car like people, some people like junky cars, they like cars with character, like, that's who you are as a vocalist to like, not everybody wants everything to sound perfect. You know? Like, I think about that. What you just said, where your voice isn't the most important part of the song. And people come to the shows for different reasons. I remember having a bad night in Colorado, which was a big deal for me, because that's where we make all our records. And so like usually our production team comes down to the show from Fort Collins. And so if I want to impress them, you're gonna meet him I'm after those are like, you know, the guys I want to impress. And I had a bad night I was talking to Bill Stevenson, who's the producer of most of the Rise Against stuff you ever heard and was the drummer of Black Flag and the Descendants songwriter, he's just a punk rock legend extraordinaire, you know, and a close friend of mine, and certainly somebody that I feel like is a collaborator on everything that I've ever done backstage and I was down to myself, because I knew I kind of had a great show. And Bill's always great at like saying the right thing. And at that point, I remember, he was telling me kind of just like, he's like, “Tim, I don't think that what's what's different about your music is that, you know, people aren't here to see you hit every single note perfectly. You know, that's not why they showed up to like the Fillmore tonight in Denver, they come for a lot of different and more important reasons. And you fulfilled that tonight, like you did that they're happy, you should be proud of what you did. And I was like, it's only about him saying, It's me to hear I mean, like I there's more weight to what he says to me, then, like what the rest of the planet says to me. And like him saying that, to me was like, it was really important made me realize, like, yeah, like that, that is something that I need to think about. And that I'm not always totally aware or conscious of.
Davin Youngs 1:01:29
It's a, it's an ego check, right? Like, and this is when we think about like stage fright, and things like this, it's generally the mind telling you that you're the most important thing in that moment. And when you can think about music, and AR and creation as service to others, you know, it helps put you out of the way, get you get you out of the way, and really allow you to, again, be the vessel for the song or the sound. And there are limitations on what you can deliver on any given night, which actually brings me to one last sort of technical thought is, is this idea of when you sing now, or when you scream now, and it's different, because you're coordinating it differently in your body and you're thinking about sustainability, you are giving up something that you could do in your youth, right, like like that there, you were actually able to, during a time literally just scream for 30 minutes, and then you could wake up and potentially do it the next day. And I think that that's something that's just really interesting to consider for the listener or the fan. It's like that we have these expectations, that sound shouldn't change or doesn't change, especially with people's voices, but it's your body. But I wonder what your experience is with that? Are you aware of that? Do you notice that it's landing differently now?
Tim McIlrath 1:03:03
I mean, for me, it lands totally differently. And I love it when I can fool people here. I mean, when they don't hear it differently, you know, that's something and I fooled Bill, the last time we're in the studio, like I fooled him, because he was one of the people that were skeptical about me, like talking to you. He was like, afraid of pulling that car apart. You know, and nobody is more, besides, you probably is more intimately familiar with my voice than bill because he's just been there behind the glass for so many songs, and he's been there at my highest and my lowest. And I told him, like, I was able to do things that were still aesthetically pleasing to the guy that has the highest bar of my voice on the planet. And was fun for me, good for me satisfying for me, it allowed me to like really reclaim my songs too. It was almost it's almost like, um, you know, Rise Against has, I don't know, like 100, 120 songs out there. I mean, they're all my babies. And there was a point where I was like, Am I able to still sing these songs? Like, could I do it? Now, if you put a quarter in me? Could I pull this off? And there was a point where I felt like the answer to the question was no. And that was really sad to me. And there's still songs like, I definitely chose to sing them way higher than I should have. So I will be challenged to do them. But for the most part, I am not intimidated by anything our catalog anymore. And like that's pretty awesome feeling.
Davin Youngs 1:04:36
I would say that that's actually unique. You know, again, if you use an athletic analogy, which is really the only useful analogy, when we talk about singing, it's like you don't behave the same now as you did then in terms of what you're able to do and achieve the body changes. It's all different. But if you can change your relationship to the song and and do it with the ability and the maturity that you've gathered over time, then it's incredible to be able to do it. And I will say like, It's incredible to me that you do, the songs you do in the keys that you do, because most people lower their keys over time, right, and there's nothing for the record, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no right or wrong key for a song, it's really about setting it up in a way that's going to set you up for success. But it is, you know, amazing to me that you're still pulling off some of the notes that you're pulling off that so regularly and routinely. So I think it's a real testament to your ability to do the work to create the change. And just generally, to have a lifestyle that has allowed you for some longevity, you know, there are so many reasons why people point down various paths that don't allow them to do what they do for a long time. So it's a real testament to some of the choices that you've made.
So, so with that in mind, what is what's the future hold for you right now? What's creatively exciting, what are you? What are you looking forward to singing?
Tim McIlrath 1:06:28
Oh, my gosh, I mean, I'm looking forward to getting back with the band, and doing stuff. And I feel like I've opened a lot of doors to like, that I've closed in the past in terms of like, if the guides like, hey, let's play this song. And I'd be like, No, no, no. And that's frustrating to them, because fucking McIlrath won't do the song, you know, because it's one of their favorite songs. And maybe they wrote a great part and just want to play and I'm preventing that, you know, that sucks, you know? And now I feel like, Yes, let's do it. Like, let's open the door. Let's open the vault. You know, I mean, let's go back and do this stuff that I have traditionally said no, to, and let's do it. You know, that's cool. And then, I mean, I feel like anything else I want to do is like, it's really been a, it's been, like, a shift of frame of mind for me, to now look at my future as less finite. And I looked at it like a year or two ago, I looked at a more I look, I was looking at things a lot more in the rearview mirror, I guess I'm just thinking like, Oh, well, I Well, I did it. You know, I was on that, on that football field when I was young. And now not now I'm off of it, you know, and now look at it more like Well, no, I I got, I have tools that I can use. And so that's kind of has my brain kind of really going to think about, like the possibilities of what I can do. And, and, and, and in the very present exact moment. I'm back in college right now, which is taking up all my time. So what I do post that, you know, the world's my oyster.
Davin Youngs 1:07:58
Yeah, well, that just doing that alone is another sort of example of how you aren't, aren't afraid of the work.
Tim McIlrath 1:08:08
Your voice, especially as being a songwriter like myself, it's tied to your writing. Because I feel like, when I was struggling with my voice, I also wrote less. And that was because I didn't feel like these words, had an avenue. These words, were not going to have a vehicle. And so they represented struggle to me. And so, I wasn't motivated to write words and lyrics, because I didn't see the vehicle in which these words would be delivered. And because now I have a vehicle for it, it's re inspire me to be writing because now I can picture myself singing them.
Davin Youngs 1:08:54
And that's why I think of the voice is, is a metaphor for life and living. And it's like, you know, it's a mirror to what it is that our how it is that we see ourselves to function to show up to express ourselves to be heard. And when you feel that empowerment around your sound, especially if you identify as a singer, when you feel that empowerment around your sound, it opens up so many different avenues and sources and opportunities for exploration. So So I just want to land this plane by saying I really appreciate your work ethic and your willingness and vulnerability. And I think that that so many people do look to your voice as a representation of of what it is to be out in the world and be actively pursuing that which is not just handed to you right like that. And you've been so vocal over the years around, around standing up for what you believe in. And so with that came a lot of pressure but you've risen to that challenge and especially over the last few years and It shows great depth and great maturity. And I'm grateful to have been along for some of the journey and I gotta say it is my personal opinion that you sound kick ass right now you sound seriously really great. And I'm excited for you to keep exploring. Oh, well,
Tim McIlrath 1:10:15
I appreciate that. I appreciate. I mean, all the hard work you put into me, because it probably wasn't always easy. And it definitely, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where I'd be had we not met?
Davin Youngs 1:10:28
Likewise, but let's not do it again, Okay?
Tim McIlratg 1:10:33
Amen.
Davin Youngs 1:11:03
All right. What do you think? That's pretty good, right. I think it's truly unique to get access to a singer of Tim's caliber, Tim stature, Tim's experience, and have them actually share what was going on behind the scenes with their voice. I mean, so many people are so worried about letting their flaws show but Tim just offers all of it with humility and grace, and it's so helpful and so useful for anyone who wants to pursue a similar journey. So I'm really really so grateful to him for allowing us the privilege of listening in on that story. You can find him and Rise Against at rise against.com you can of course, stream them everywhere. You'll find them all over the internet and YouTube they have pretty killer videos that you should check out and watch and if you want to be in touch with me if you want to know more about me check out Davin Youngs calm you can find me on all the socials Instagram, Twitter, etc. @davinyoungs And if you like this podcast, please like, share, subscribe, review, do all of the things that help the internet know that we exist. Help me with the algorithm. And hopefully there will be more episodes like this to come. All right, my friends. I hope this inspires you hope you will use your voice and I hope that you will sing.
Peace